ASK: roy.greenslade@guardian.co.uk
ROY didn't censor me, his moderators did. Who are they and why did they do it? All I wrote was:
On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Danny Bloom wrote
> "This was a fascinating post, Roy, and the Rashomon part of the story
> remains a never ending tale. Everyone sees the truth from their POV.
> But from these photos, it does seem as if someone -- guess who? --
> was fibbinb about the Israeli soldiers coming down the ropes with guns
> loaded and ready to kill. Smile. As if. But that said, no matter which
> part of this Rashomon story you believe, be you Christian Jewish
> Palestinian or Buddhist -- or maybe a good old atheist agnosticator --
> the thing is this, and I saw this as a deeply feeling Jewish lad from
> Boston: Israel was a mistake to place there smack in the middle of
> Arab land back in 1949. Year I was born. It was mistake and we can
> blame lots of powers for this. You don't put a Jewish Homeland smack
> in the middle of someone else's land. Sorry, you just don't. But the
> powers that be did just that. And we are stuck with this 1000 year war
> against the Israelis and they against the Arabs. It will never end. I
> was in Jerusalem in 1971 and met an Egyptian bloke on the boat over to
> Israel from Greece and he and spoke of peace, maybe in 25 years. Look!
> Nada! It would have been better to put the dear Jewish Homeland of the
> Zionists in Argentina or Alaska, and there were plans at the time to
> do so, but the Middle East won the vote. I have no idea why. Look, we
> Jews left Israel 2500 years ago or more, and for a good reason. Much
> better life in Europe and North America, even South America and
> Australia, compared to putting a new artificial nation there. There?
> Why on Earth? Well, we all know why. Everyone was guilty. The
> Holocaust was over everyone's shoulder, too. Damn Christianity! Damn
> Hitler! Damn Islam! Damn
> the Olde Testament gods with their fire-breating dragons! The Middle
> East has given the modern world the three most terrible and stupid
> religions ever to visit this Eearth, and again, I say this as a deeply
> feeling Jewish bloke who loves being Jewish and is Jewish to the core
> in terms of humor and worldview but I do not believe for one second
> there ever was a Hebrew God or a Christian Messiah or any son of God
> and certainly no Allah. When will we all wake up and say enought with
> this god business? That said, it does seem those photos show that the
> Israeli PR teams were not lying and that in fact this time the Arabs
> were lying. Photos do not lie. Sigh. I am glad I will be dead soon.
> This world is totally effed up and Israel and the PLO make a mockery
> of what human life is to be about. Once upon a time. Ouch."
World scoop for amateur photographer who pictured Israeli flotilla raid (8)Tweet this (4)Comments (40)
Journalistic scoops sometimes walk in off the street. That's just what happened earlier this month in Istanbul, as Der Spiegel reveals.
On 4 June, an agitated man with a bald head and a grey beard arrived at the headquarters of the Muslim aid organisation IHH in the Turkish capital.
He identified himself as Kevin Neish, a 53-year-old peace activist and amateur photographer from Canada, and said that four days previously he had been on board the Mavi Marmara, the
ship boarded by Israeli soldiers while heading for Gaza.
After explaining that he had been taking pictures when the soldiers stormed the vessel and killed nine people, he asked: "Do you have a computer?"
He then handed over a memory card, and the pictures that appeared on the computer screen astonished the IHH staff. One showed two pro-Palestinian activists armed with iron bars standing in front of a door.
Another showed an Israeli soldier covered in blood and lying on the floor. A third showed a dead activist who appeared to have been shot in the head.
Neish had managed to smuggle the memory card past the vigilant Israeli authorities despite being searched along with other activists who were detained. "I hid the card everywhere while the soldiers were questioning us," he said. "I had it in my mouth, once in my shoes, and once in my underpants."
Three days later, on 7 June, Neish's pictures were published in the Turkish newspaper Hürriyet alongside a set taken by Turkish photographer Adem Özköse.
The fact that the pictures ran counter to the widely-held view in Turkey that the Israeli soldiers had not been attacked by activists was important in political terms.
Hürriyet belongs to a media group owned by Aydin Dogan, whose papers have warned against excessive Israel bashing. It is therefore critical of the stance of Turkey's prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan (Example here).
Pro-government newspapers immediately accused the Dogan group of playing into Israel's hands by publishing the photos.
To confuse matters, there has been criticism of Hürriyet in Israel for publishing the pictures because of the possible negative effect on the morale of the country's troops.
But the Israeli government doesn't share that view. It regards the Neish pictures as final proof that activists on the Mavi Marmara wanted to "lynch" its soldiers.
The pictures were later circulated by Reuters, causing another controversy when the news agency was accused of manipulating the images by cropping out the hand of one pro-Palestinian activist holding a knife. On another, a pool of blood was missing.
Sources: Der Spiegel/Hürriyet/Haaretz
Posted by
Roy Greenslade Friday 18 June 2010 10.34 BST
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Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 11:16AM
One wonders why he needed to smuggle evidence of Israelis being brutally beaten past the Israelis.
Still, many of the bigots brigade who populate the I/P threads refuse to admit that Israelis were beaten as they descended from the helicopter and eventually killed in defence of their lives despite the graphic evidence before their eyes. Perhaps he thought he would have been accused of cooperating with the Israelis.
Mr Greenslade, after writing this blog --- which version do you believe?
Recommend? (16) Report abuse Clip | Link sydk
18 Jun 2010, 11:32AM
The evidence that the Israeli commandos were attacked and beaten when they landed on the MM is overwhelming - the idea that all the video footage and photographic evidence could all be faked is purely for the conspiracy theorists and extreme anti-Israel bigots.
Recommend? (13) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 11:40AM
Sydk
Since as I agree with you, the evidence is so overwhelming why is the investigation not into Turkey's motives and behaviour in commissioning the ships and in employing the thugs who perpetrated the disgusting display of violence?
Why is the UN not roaring in indignation at Turkey's behaviour?
Recommend? (12) Report abuse Clip | Link SantaMoniker
18 Jun 2010, 11:51AM
Oh dear.
He then handed over a memory card, and the pictures that appeared on the computer screen astonished the IHH staff. One showed two pro-Palestinian activists armed with iron bars standing in front of a door.
Another showed an Israeli soldier covered in blood and lying on the floor. A third showed a dead activist who appeared to have been shot in the head.
And I thought that these were peaceful activists.
How wrong one can be ...
Recommend? (12) Report abuse Clip | Link TheVoiceOfIsrael
18 Jun 2010, 12:00PM
I am less surprised by the pictures being "smuggled past the vigilant Israeli authorities" (why would anyone need to smuggle them past the Israeli authorities?), than I am by Greenslade's piece getting into this website.
And while Israeli diplomats and ministers have tried to spin the clash on the aid flotilla as either much ado about nothing, or as a justified response to violent and illegal actions by the activists,
Will there be an apology from the Guardian?
(When hell freezes over, I would guess.)
Recommend? (27) Report abuse Clip | Link JamesDickins
18 Jun 2010, 12:15PM
The evidence given in this report does not support the views of pro-Israeli Commenters:
One [photo] showed two pro-Palestinian activists armed with iron bars standing in front of a door.
If someone was attempting to shoot me, I would be grab anything available to defend myself.
Another showed an Israeli soldier covered in blood and lying on the floor.
This does not imply that the peace activists attacked the Israeli soldiers first. In fact, we know from other sources that they tended wounded Israelis, indicating that there was no intention to kill.
A third showed a dead activist who appeared to have been shot in the head.
We know from other sources that most of the peace activists were shot from behind, in the head or back, or both:
The results revealed that a 60-year-old man, Ibrahim Bilgen, was shot four times in the temple, chest, hip and back. A 19-year-old, named as Fulkan Dogan, who also has US citizenship, was shot five times from less that 45cm, in the face, in the back of the head, twice in the leg and once in the back. Two other men were shot four times, and five of the victims were shot either in the back of the head or in the back, said Yalcin Buyuk, vice-chairman of the council of forensic medicine.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results
Recommend? (25) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 12:33PM
JamesDickens 12.15PM - This is an apt illustration of the unshakeable belief that the Israelis are always in the wrong.
Recommend? (13) Report abuse Clip | Link rubberneck
18 Jun 2010, 12:45PM
@jubilation1
JamesDickens 12.15PM - This is an apt illustration of the unshakeable belief that the Israelis are always in the wrong.
It's actually an illustration that there are two sides to every story, and that context is everything. I agree that Israeli soldiers were beaten and attacked, but the evidence points to a reason. They had already fired on and killed some of the activists on board As you would imagine, the soldiers were attacked as soon as they landed. Being a peace activist does not mean accepting cold blooded murder. It is about an ongoing struggle for justice.
Why did the IDF confiscate all media if they had nothing to hide ????
Recommend? (15) Report abuse Clip | Link DrDelaney
18 Jun 2010, 12:54PM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. DrDelaney
18 Jun 2010, 1:03PM
Why did the IDF confiscate all media if they had nothing to hide ????
Maybe they sort of wanted to find out what exactly had happened? Like you do. Just a guess, like.
Recommend? (6) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 1:06PM
They had already fired on and killed some of the activists on board
Oh yes, that's the version of the person who was on The Challenger - another ship entirely, is it? Or is it the version of the person on one of the other decks of the Marmara - those remarkably good humanitarian people who gave unmistakably lying accounts of the proceedings and whose humanity stretches to encompass everyone against the Israelis?
Recommend? (11) Report abuse Clip | Link JamesDickins
18 Jun 2010, 1:07PM
DrDelaney. 18 Jun 2010, 1:03PM. Why did the IDF confiscate all media if they had nothing to hide ????
Maybe they sort of wanted to find out what exactly had happened? Like you do. Just a guess, like
A poor guess. If you wanted to find out exactly what happened and had nothing to hide, you would make a copy of the information on the media, and hand the originals back to their owners. Only those with something to hide confiscate evidence.
Recommend? (16) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 1:11PM
Only those with something to hide confiscate evidence.
or those with no time because there are hundreds of people to process.
Recommend? (6) Report abuse Clip | Link DrDelaney
18 Jun 2010, 1:12PM
Being a peace activist does not mean accepting cold blooded murder.
For some "peace" activists it would appear to mean trying to commit it.
Come on, these guys were not peaceniks, they were jihadis. Don't take my word for it, take their own (and that of the ship's captain).
Recommend? (14) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 1:45PM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. BennyHo
18 Jun 2010, 2:05PM
I'm flabbergasted.
The Guardian faithful being told, on the Guardian site, that some of the 'peace activists' were ..... NOT actually 'peace activists'.
(Clashings of thunder and lashings of cold, cold rain).
The pictures were later circulated by Reuters, causing another controversy when the news agency was accused of manipulating the images by cropping out the hand of one pro-Palestinian activist holding a knife. On another, a pool of blood was missing.
Yes. I read about that elsewhere but, this is surely new for The Guardian.
I cannot 'click' anymore.
I will have to take some medication.
Recommend? (7) Report abuse Clip | Link sydk
18 Jun 2010, 2:06PM
Rubber:
They had already fired on and killed some of the activists on board
Do you have any evidence to back up this contention?
Five boats were boarded realatively peacefully - why would Israeli commandosboard this one all guns blazing knowing it would cause an international outcry.
The vidoe evidence shows that the soldiers were attacked as they abseilled onto the boat.
Logic dictates that your sequence of events is extremely unlikely - now i challenge you to produce the evidence to support your contention.
Recommend? (9) Report abuse Clip | Link BennyHo
18 Jun 2010, 2:17PM
sydk
The vidoe evidence shows that the soldiers were attacked as they abseilled onto the boat.
Yes. Looking at the video, the 'peace activists' seem singularly un-deterred by the reported 'hail of live bullets' fired on them by the commandos.
I know that it is unbelievable but some 'peace activists' lie.
No no. Its true.
They lie.
Recommend? (5) Report abuse Clip | Link rubberneck
18 Jun 2010, 2:30PM
@sydk
Logic dictates that your sequence of events is extremely unlikely - now i challenge you to produce the evidence to support your contention.
If all the media evidence hadn't been stolen by the IDF then we could make up our minds, but obviously they have something to hide. If they don't why hasn't the media all been returned ?
As for the "jihadis " on board, why didn't they bring guns, bombs, explosives etc. What kind of "Jihadis " use chairs and poles ??
@jubilation1
Having a different opinion to your own does not make someone " a bigot "
Recommend? (15) Report abuse Clip | Link BennyHo
18 Jun 2010, 2:38PM
rubberneck - 'As for the "jihadis " on board, why didn't they bring guns, bombs, explosives etc. What kind of "Jihadis " use chairs and poles ?? '
They were heavy chains amd solid metal bars.
So. You don't accept that these were pseudo peace activists spoiling for a fight?
Nothing more to say really.
To you at least.
Recommend? (5) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 2:46PM
Having a different opinion to your own does not make someone " a bigot "
Refusing to accept clear proof because it does not fit in with preconceptions does make someone a bigot.
Recommend? (4) Report abuse Clip | Link rubberneck
18 Jun 2010, 2:51PM
@BennyHo
They were heavy chains amd solid metal bars.
How many troops in Afghanistan and Iraq have the jihadi's killed with "heavy chains amd solid metal bars" ? The IDf showed them what terrorists really use to kill people.
Recommend? (12) Report abuse Clip | Link rubberneck
18 Jun 2010, 2:53PM
@Jubilation1
Refusing to accept clear proof because it does not fit in with preconceptions does make someone a bigot.
No it doesn't ! Get yourself a dictionary - and use it.
Recommend? (8) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 2:59PM
rubberducky
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ. -- and intolerant of those who use the word to mean the same thing in different terms
Recommend? (4) Report abuse Clip | Link WyldeWolfe
18 Jun 2010, 3:21PM
@Jubilation1
rubberducky has certainly argued his own opinion yet conceded that there are two sides to every story and that the soldiers were beaten. As to the clear proof, edited videotapes taken out of the context of time and sequence of events is hardly clear proof.
If there's any intolerance being shown to other viewpoints it's clearly being displayed by you.
Recommend? (4) Report abuse Clip | Link BennyHo
18 Jun 2010, 3:34PM
WyldeWolfe
rubberducky has certainly argued his own opinion yet conceded that there are two sides to every story and that the soldiers were beaten. As to the clear proof, edited videotapes taken out of the context of time and sequence of events is hardly clear proof.
Do you have any evidence that the videos are edited or even shown in an untruthful time frame which has been 'compiled' to support Israel's contentions?
However you look at it, the 'peace activists' seem to completely disregard the 'rain of bullets' reported by one of the 'peace activists'. She specifically 'claimed' the bullets fantasy as the starting point. Not as a response to attempts to attack Israeli commandos doing their lawful duty.
Recommend? (4) Report abuse Clip | Link WyldeWolfe
18 Jun 2010, 3:43PM
Well mods Jubiliation can go around and label everyone a bigot a number of times yet if I suggest he's being intolerant it gets deleted? No, no bias here at all.
@BennyHo
Do you have any evidence that the videos are edited or even shown in an untruthful time frame which has been 'compiled' to support Israel's contentions?
I never suggested anything along those lines. I said edited video (which it is as the whole event is not covered) taken out of context of sequence of events (ie we don't know what went on leading up to that point) is not clear proof of what happened.
For me the jury is still out (and my bet is that there will be blame to go around on both sides).
Recommend? (2) Report abuse Clip | Link WyldeWolfe
18 Jun 2010, 4:08PM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 4:22PM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. turkism
18 Jun 2010, 8:07PM
this article makes some good points however, i do disagree with some of the statements, like the justification for the use of force by the Israeli military, i have a link which some other readers might be interested in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_Ij6xz5q-Q
Recommend? (1) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
18 Jun 2010, 8:41PM
turkism those are the pix discussed in the article above - proving how the jihadis were armed and dangerous.
Recommend? (3) Report abuse Clip | Link turkism
18 Jun 2010, 10:35PM
i solely disagree that these people were jihadis, in the link i posted earlier the photographer Kevin Neish explains why they had iron bars.
Recommend? (0) Report abuse Clip | Link Jubilation1
19 Jun 2010, 5:15AM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. snowwalling
19 Jun 2010, 8:37AM
This comment has been removed by a moderator. Replies may also be deleted. BennyHo
19 Jun 2010, 9:13AM
turkism
i solely disagree that these people were jihadis
Yeah. Well. Try explaining why they were preparing to be 'Shaheeds'?
The videos are just terrible. They expose the lies for any normal person.
The sound tracks too.
Videos shouldn't be allowed.
Unless of course, they are presented by 'Peace Activists'.
Recommend? (2) Report abuse Clip | Link BetaVersionOne
19 Jun 2010, 4:43PM
This is really a weird article. It seems to support the Israeli position, yet it is smuggled past Israeli soldiers? And then, IHH, the Turkish aid group that Israel calls a "terrorist organization, turns it over to the world media? Stranger still.
I would remind everyone that Israel did not land on the ship during the day, but in the dark at 4:45 AM while people are sleeping. When you are woke up by loud bangs and huge flashes near you - you rightfully assume upon awakening that your life is in grave danger. You grab anything nearby to defend your life.
Later it is said that the Israeli Navy Seals, highly trained commandos, used flash bang grenades. You do not awake from a deep sleep and try to decide if an attack is real or not. You react to save your life. If this was not the intended result that the Israeli leadership wanted - then why assault a ship this way?
Recommend? (2) Report abuse Clip | Link conform
20 Jun 2010, 5:47AM
The truth always surfaces,no matter how hard they try to suppress,this was no peaceful flotilla,it was provocative act in the extreme.
Recommend? (5) Report abuse Clip | Link conform
20 Jun 2010, 5:57AM
This shameful act by the flotilla,backfired in their faces,it did not turn out the way they wanted it to.
The tide that was against Israel,is now turning,now that more and more evidence is being produced of what really happened on the Mavi Marmara.
Even the Turkish newspapers are starting to publish what really happened on that boat.
Turkey owes Israel an apology.
Recommend? (4) Report abuse Clip | Link Whoopsydoo
20 Jun 2010, 7:40AM
SYDK
The vidoe evidence shows that the soldiers were attacked as they abseilled onto the boatt.
The video the Israelis showed the world was fake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufZkZIrsKFU
Recommend? (0) Report abuse Clip | Link snowwalling
20 Jun 2010, 1:24PM
This was a fascinating post, and the Rashomon part of the story
/> remains a never ending tale. Everyone sees the truth from their POV.
/> But from these photos, it does seem as if someone -- guess who? --
/> was fibbing about the Israeli soldiers coming down the ropes with guns
/> loaded and ready to kill. As if. But that said, no matter which
/> part of this Rashomon story you believe,
/> the thing is this, this 1000 year war in the Middle East is not good for anyone.